Podcast

Founders of the Barefoot Center for Massage, Jeni Spring and Mary Claire Fredette, join Allissa to talk about the evolution of their careers and how to get the most out of Continuing Education.

This episode is sponsored by the Barefoot Center for Massage, go here to enter to win a free day of class and receive the free download, 20 Top Hacks to Retain Clients.

Transcript:

Sponsor message This episode is sponsored by the Center for Barefoot Massage. The Center for Barefoot Massage offers Ashiatsu CE classes across the country. They focus on a unique blend of anatomy-driven, game-changing, career-saving “FasciAshi” courses that will “toe-tally” empower you to provide massage techniques with your feet. They are leading a movement that offers massage therapists an opportunity to stay in the profession longer and even retire your hands. Go to massagebusinessblueprint.com/barefoothacks to get your free download special just for listeners of this episode: 20 Top Hacks to Retain Clients. You can get that at massagebusinessblueprint.com/barefoothacks.

Allissa Haines Hello. Welcome to the Massage Business Blueprint podcast, where we discuss the business side of massage therapy. I am Allissa Haines, and I am thrilled about today’s interview episode because we’re doing a thing we have not done before and have two guests all at once. We have — from the Center for Barefoot Massage, we have their founders, Jeni Spring and Mary Claire Fredette. Hello!

Jeni Spring Hi.

AH Welcome. I’m going to just give a brief little bit about each of you and then let you expand upon that. First, we’ve got Jeni Spring, who is from San Antonio, Texas, who has been a massage therapist for a super long time, since 2003. She does exclusively Ashiatsu therapy at her center in San Antonio.

And we are also joined by Mary Claire Fredette from Cincinnati, Ohio, who has also been a massage therapist for quite a long time, since 1997. And, Mary Claire, do you do exclusively Ashiatsu as well?

Mary Claire Fredette I do, I would say, 99% Ashiatsu. I do have one client who is 89 years old and she was my first client, and so I do hands on massage on her. And I’m also certified in pregnancy massage, so every now and again I still do pregnancy massage on people by hand because I like to do it.

AH Sweet. What I want to know from each of you — and you can go in any order that you want — how — what got you into massage therapy and what got you into massage school?

MCF Jeni, go ahead.

JS Okay. I used to dance a lot. I did a lot of modern and ballet dance, and I was teaching competitive dance teams, and also online, all the way from high school until I was 23 or -4. Well, anyway, in the middle of all that, one of my instructors did a lot of bodywork on us and movement education, and so I was used to being touched and being worked on to prevent injury or to heal from dance injuries, and it always just struck me as a normal thing. But my plan actually was to go get a degree in dance and forever and always somehow be involved with dance. To afford that and to make — to find a job that fit around that kind of dance schedule, I started going to massage school. It was kind of just a back-up plan. [laughs] But I ended up loving massage a lot more than the competitive world of dance, and I just stuck with it. I think as soon as I did my internship on the dancers and I was massaging their legs, I liked doing that a lot more than being a dancer myself. So it stuck.

AH Nice. Mary Claire, how did you get into it?

MCF Well, I have a bachelor’s degree in theatre and film, which qualifies me for restaurant and retail work. And so I had got a temporary job doing restaurant work and that lasted about 9 years. My husband, one year for Christmas, had given me two gift certificates for massage, and I had never had a massage before. So I went and got massage, and I was super stoked about it, and it was so terrible I can’t even tell you how bad it was. It was so deep and I had no idea that I could even tell the client — or tell the therapist that I wanted less pressure. I would have never gotten another massage again, actually, except that I had another gift certificate and I was not about to waste that $50 my husband had spent, at the time. This therapist had a poster for craniosacral on the wall, and so when I went back the second time, I asked about craniosacral and she did that on me, and I loved it so much. And so I asked her a whole bunch of questions about where she went to school and what was involved with that. At the time, I had been interested in getting my master’s degree in some sort of counseling. I didn’t know for sure what I wanted to do, I just knew that I wanted to help people. And so the idea of going to massage school was completely nuts to me at the time. I didn’t know anything about it, so I went to the library because there was no internet, really, back then, and I got out some books and I read about it. And my husband said, “Do you think you can even touch people?” I said, “I frankly have no idea.” [laughs] So I started school about a year later. I had a full-time job and two kids — young children — at the time, and so I started school a year later and the rest is history, as they say.

AH And, while we got you, Mary Claire, let’s — take us through what the evolution of your career has been like. You went to massage school; you graduated. Where did you work? What are the places that you worked, and how did it get to be what your daily life is like now?

MCF Well, when I first graduated from school, I got a job at this high-end day spa. I was surprised that they actually hired me because they were really well coiffed, and I am a messy bun kind of person. I worked in this day spa, which was really great in a lot of ways because, as I mentioned before, I had two young children — and I went on to have a lot more children — and it was perfect with my schedule. With my restaurant management experience, I was used to that boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, go, go, go, go. So working in that kind of atmosphere with five minutes in between clients was okay with me. But I started to develop a lot of hand issues and elbow issues that most massage therapists have.

The funny thing is, if you think back about massage school — we didn’t have a clinic at the time, and we were allowed to do — we were required to do a program where we worked on people that we didn’t know and we were sent places to go work. This one time I went to work on this lady, and I liked my table set up high at the time. She was really thick, so when she laid down on the table, her back was to my armpits, and I had no idea how to work on this lady. Somebody at the time — now this was back in 1997 or ’98 — one of the students I was going to school with had mentioned something about Thai massage, and so I thought that I would try massage — try Thai massage. I climbed up on the table and I stuck my shin in her hamstrings, my knees in her butt, and I literally crawled around on her back for a half hour. She had told me how amazing it was that she’d never had such deep tissue work before, and she loved it. I went back to school and I told somebody that I did Thai massage, and then they laughed at me because that was not Thai massage at all. But it’s one of those necessity is the mother of inventions. I realized that gravity somehow was the way to do it.

In the summer of 2002, I had found out that there was actually such a thing called barefoot massage, and so I took a class and got hired by a chiropractor who was looking for an Ashiatsu therapist because he had great results with a combination of chiropractic and Ashiatsu. So I worked both part-time in the day spa and part-time in the chiropractor’s office, and it was a really nice synergy of doing really clinical work along with that relaxation style. The two of them, I felt, really melded well together: being able to work clinically with your feet as well as doing some really nice effleurage strokes so that people didn’t think that you were tormenting them the whole time. After then, I ended up getting more and more clients and started out with my own office and got so busy that I ended up quitting the other two jobs. That’s — I think I’ve been completely on my own for 10 years now and I’ve been teaching Ashiatsu for about 14 years.

The reason why I started teaching, actually, is because I had been on vacation for about a week and I went back to work at the day spa one day where I was doing hands-on massage, and I hadn’t realized at the time how much my forearms and my wrists hurt because you just kind of get used to it. When I started doing this hands-on massage after being off for a week, I realized that my hands were hurting again and I had this light-bulb moment saying You need to teach other people how to do this so that nobody else has to suffer through it like this. That’s where it all started.

AH So what’s your day-to-day like now? How many clients are you seeing a week now in your private practice? How often are you teaching? What’s stuff like?

MCF I normally teach about once a month, and it depends, and I travel to teach sometimes, as well, and we also train other instructors. Sometimes we teach at other places just by ourselves, and sometimes we travel to teach to train instructors. So that’s usually about once a month, sometimes a little bit more than that. And my schedule varies a little bit, as most people’s do. I am a solo practitioner, which I love. I don’t like being responsible for other people. My life is busy enough at home, so, for me, it’s a perfect way to get away and do the thing that I like. I would say I probably do — I would say, maybe, an average of 20 people a week. And I do mostly hour-and-a-half sessions, too, which I think is really important. I really love the hour-and-half session.

AH So you’re talking like 30 hours of actual massage work on the table per week.

MCF Oh, no. Actually, no. No, I’m sorry. 20 hours of massage —

AH Got it.

MCF — so I don’t know how many people that works out to at about an hour-and-a-half massage each.

AH Sweet. That’s full time in my world —

MCF Yeah.

AH — plus teaching. That’s remarkable. So, Jeni, let’s jump to you. Tell me about the evolution of your career starting from when you got out of school.

JS Well, first, right out of school, I went into an Ashiatsu class like two days later. I hadn’t even taken my state test or gone to the graduation ceremony. I just went into class. And then a couple of days after that, I went around town and found a place to set up my shop and build bars. So I didn’t even have a clientele; I didn’t even have a license; I just found everything fast. Along with all that, I was still working full-time at a bank, on the email team, and then I also went out and got a job at a spa. I was trying to cover all my bases, trying to find a way out of working for corporate America. I stuck on with all three of those jobs until one — I promised myself the first weekend that I have fully booked on massage is when I’m going to quit the bank job, which only took about three months. So then from about three months into my career on, I was always splitting my time between my solo practice and working for somewhere else just to — so my solo practice wouldn’t stress me out. This was all in Seattle.

At one point after my Ashiatsu stuff started to get known, this specialty, high-end yoga spa over in Kirkland wanted me to be their — what would you call it — like a coordinator or — there’s a better word for it than that, but [laughs] — I had to bring together a whole service menu that had to do with barefoot massage. So I was looking for their training, I was looking for the therapists, I was trying to figure out okay, are we going to do Ashiatsu and Fujian and Thai and Shiatsu and all the things, and who’s going to teach all these people these things. That was pretty fun. I got to coordinate everything and get that whole thing launched. It was fun. Eventually I just went full time at my own business, and it was me renting space inside kind of a massage co-op. I was surrounded by all these really awesome advanced massage therapists, and I was this brand-new little thing in there. We were all doing insurance work and injury treatment work, and we would get to do a lot of events together like big farmer’s markets and festivals, and it was a really awesome starting point. That was Edmonds Massage Center, and they’re all awesome. I’m still friends with a lot of them.

AH When did you end up in San Antonio?

JS That was kind of right after that, about four years later. My husband’s job and the promise to teach Ashiatsu brought us down here. I was probably four or five years in Seattle and then we moved here. And that’s where everything changed. I would say at first it changed for the worst because San Antonio was just not getting it, and it was really frustrating. Even the hands-on massage I was doing, people didn’t want anything challenging. They just wanted a “fluff and buff” and get put to sleep, and that frustrates me more than anything. I can’t stand doing relaxation massage. [laughs] At one point, I got so frustrated with people not being brave enough to try the Ashiatsu work that I really wanted to do. I would have been happy with splitting the difference, you know? Half of the massage is hands on, half of it feet on; a blend of everything within every session. I was perfectly happy with that. But I was upset that this town would not be cool with me standing on them. I finally just put my foot down and retired my hands and referred everybody away if they weren’t going to let me do what I wanted to do. I always say that was potential career suicide, but I feel like they kind of drove me to it. [laughs]

AH See? In marketing, we would just call that “you focused specifically and only on your ideal client, which is someone who’s comfortable trying barefoot massage.” So you win. You, without even knowing it, practiced a really important marketing principle.

JS And it was awesome. As soon as I did that, things really took off. It kept on growing and growing and growing. At one point, I got to the point where I couldn’t teach and massage all the clients that wanted to come in through the door, so I hired my first employee, and then that turned into five employees. At one point I think I maxed out at eight, and now I’m back down to about four, five. What was really cool with all that, is as far as I can tell, my business Healing Sole was the first multi-therapist massage clinic where everybody only massaged with their feet doing Ashiatsu. If anybody else can prove me wrong, right on. But as far as I can tell, I was the first, which is pretty rad. [laughs]

AH So, Jeni, what is your fantasy job/location/training? If you were to — if someone was to hand you a couple million dollars right now, what would your plan be?

JS I would have some franchises of Healing Sole out there so that I could just plop in and teach whenever I wanted. But honestly, I would just live on a beach and massage people on the sand and use sunblock to massage them with. [laughs]

AH [laughs]

JS And all of this would have to be within walking distance of a tiki bar, and that’s my dream. That’s all.

AH That’s fair. I’ll take that. Mary Claire, how about you? What’s your lottery plan?

MCF I’m cracking up because I think I just changed mine, and I want to change mine to the beach also.

AH Right?

JS You can come.

MCF I would definitely still do massage, but I wouldn’t do it because I need the money. I would do it part time because I love to make people feel better, and I love the education portion of my work, which is transforming careers of massage therapists so that they can enjoy that longevity in their careers. I really like that a-ha moment when that lightbulb turns on for them and they discover that they can actually maintain the career. I get a real kick out of that. But I also love photography and design. I like incorporating those elements in to our business; that’s been a lot of fun too. I think add that on to a beach, maybe in San Diego or someplace. That would be awesome.

AH Yeah, we’re all going to change our plan to Jeni’s as well. Thank you for setting that up for us, and we’ll all be there in our early fake-retirement phase. Let’s do that.

JS No problem.

AH All right. So we got your history. I’m going to jump in to our halftime sponsor and then we’re going to hit our actual topic question for today, which is what to ask before you take a continuing education class. And it is no surprise that the sponsor for this episode is the Center for Barefoot Massage — yay — that Jeni and Mary Claire created.

Sponsor message The Center for Barefoot Massage offers Ashiatsu continuing education classes across the country. They focus on a unique blend of anatomy-driven, game-changing, career-saving “FasciAshi” courses that will totally empower you to provide massage techniques with your feet. It’s an alternative to wearing out your fingers and your wrists and your shoulders, as you already heard from our stories. They will work to invigorate your career and enhance your quality of life. And that’s not kidding. We take that seriously. Better massage techniques will enhance the quality of your career and your life outside of your career. And it all starts from your foundation: your feet. You can visit massagebusinessblueprint.com/barefoothacks to learn a little bit more and to also get their free pdf download article, which is Top 20 Hacks to Retain Clients, which I am super excited to check out. They have made this just for you, just for the listeners of this particular interview podcast episode. That’s massagebusinessblueprint.com/barefoothacks.

AH I think that’s everything I need to say about Barefoot. We’re going to hear more about Barefoot in the next portion of our topic as well.

Our question that you all are going to answer is what to ask before you take a continuing education class. So I will let you two take it away. I’m sure you’ve got your bullet points trading off planned. Go for it.

MCF I’ll go ahead and start. I would like to say Holy cow. All of our instructors send out so much information prior to class. They send out stuff on what to bring, great ideas of places to stay and eat, directions, they tell the prospective students that we have kitchen items so they can bring their food, etc. Some people read these emails 15 times and take them very seriously and they have everything. That’s the way I was when I — whenever I take a class. And some people don’t even both to look at the email. So I would say that’s one of the biggest things: If you get a response from your instructor telling you what to bring, then you make sure that you bring that. Read everything your instructor sends you before class, but don’t wait until the night before class.

AH That’s fair. I am guilty of over-studying — over-preparing for classes and also under-preparing for classes. So I hear that.

JS Yeah.

MCF I think that one of the things they need to know about learning a new technique is to investigate the classes that they’re taking, and I would recommend asking around for some reviews of classes. I do see that in some social media groups, and I think that’s fantastic. One thing to keep in mind is that because a modality may be offered by several different companies, and they may look the same on the surface, you should dive deeper in to the company to see what other benefits one might have over the other. For instance, maybe you’re looking for a company that offers support after class. Do you need to purchase products? Do you need to purchase videos to make the work beneficial so that you help remember it? And I would also recommend looking in to your instructor’s history. Read their website, their LinkedIn, find reviews, read their blogs, follow social medias, listen to their podcasts so that you actually get to know them. Check to see if they’re actively still doing the work, not just teaching it. Because I think one of the things that makes all of our instructors on our team fantastic is that our primary job is to do barefoot massage. We learn so much by actually working with clients on a regular basis that that all migrates into how we teach. And I think that’s really important.

JS Why would you want to go take a marketing class from someone who doesn’t even have a Facebook account?

MCF Right on.

AH That may or may not be a pet peeve of mine, where there are people — plenty of people teaching business skills, including marketing, who have not laid their hands on a client in 15 years —

JS Yeah.

AH — or haven’t had to recruit new clients in the last 5 or 10 years and are still teaching things like print ads and pinning your business cards to the bulletin board at the grocery store. That is a bit of a pet peeve of mine. I am — and also where I went to my initial massage school, it was required that all of our instructors be practicing massage therapists, have some kind of either private practice or some kind of employment situation where they were still seeing private clients along with being a teacher, and that was an actual requirement.

JS That’s a good one.

AH It dramatically informed their teaching. And really forced everyone to stay current in one way or another. But I hear you on that. I think checking out the online profile of an instructor is really important because that tells you if they’re going to — what tips they’re going to be able to give you other than just “position your hand here,” and it gives you an idea of how easy or difficult they are to communicate with when you ultimately have some kind of follow-up question or another. So hats off to that.

So we’ve got — we’ve kind of gone through really checking about — finding out what the meal and lodging situation is around your class and really whether or not the instructor proactively informs you of that kind of stuff, if you need to purchase videos or more products in order to continue what you learned in the class and what’s the layout on that. I know I’ve gone to classes and been really surprised when they’re like, “You should definitely buy this video because we didn’t cover this portion of the hand in class, but you’ll want to know that.” I’m like, “I thought that’s why I was here this weekend.” Okay.

MCF Well, that’s a pet peeve of mine is when they just don’t get to something in a class that you paid for. What was with the time management that that didn’t even happen? You know?

AH Yeah. And checking out online videos to really know what you’re getting yourself into. What supplies and equipment do you need to bring? What is the alumni support like? What else you got?

MCF I would say that — assuming you’re taking a hands-on class or feet-on class versus an ethics class — when I like to look at the instructors, I want to know if they took the time to learn the modality first and fell in love with it and then they started teaching, or did they just see something that looks cool and decide to learn to teach? And I think that’s really huge and that’s something that would take investigation, obviously, contacting your instructor-to-be. Because I think that somebody that just learned something so that they can teach it, that speaks for doing it for the money versus doing it because you love it and you want to share it because you know it can help other people.

AH One question I have — it took me a long time and many classes to get through to find this out is once I take a class in a particular modality, how many more classes do I need to take to get on to — well, one, does the education provider have some kind of registration or listing service for people who decide to practice this modality for realsies, and how many classes or how many more classes do I need to take, and is there a fee to get into that listing service? I have often felt like I’ve gotten through day 1 or in to day 2 of a class and then found it was going to cost me an extra $200 a year to get on that provider’s website to be part of that listing service. Which I see so many people do and I find it disconcerting when it’s super expensive. And I also find it disconcerting when all I have to do is take a one-day class and then I get on to someone’s website for being a provider of this modality. And I think to myself, yeah, I’m not qualified for that at this point.

JS Yeah.

AH And now I know to not trust anyone else who is listed on this site, because I don’t know how much they’ve really done.

JS That point speaks to our certification or any — a certification plan and how that’s managed by that individual continuing education company, I guess. But the main root of the problem is that wasn’t communicated beforehand, so if you did want to be listed on a website for that modality, usually there is going to be a cost. So I guess we may take it for granted in that people need to know that up front in a more obvious way, you know, rather than yeah, it’s common practice that you’ve got to pay for this spot, you know?

AH And I think that’s fair. I hate being surprised by things. And I feel like I’ve taken so many classes from people who were terrible communicators, and I’ve watched — especially someone who has anxiety over taking hands-on classes. I get super anxiety walking into a class if I don’t have a partner coming with me that I know because I don’t like being poked on and practiced on. So it becomes this whole situation of managing my anxiety while I’m trying to learn and having a lack of communication beforehand makes everything worse for me. That’s been a big deal for me.

All right. So what else — did we miss anything?

JS Oh, we’ve got a whole list going on here.

AH Bring it. Let’s do it. Pound through. I’ll stop interrupting.

JS Okay.

MCF Say you find a class that you think that you want to take, I think before you register for that class, you need to figure out what your goals are prior to going to the class. So are you going to the class because you want to save your hands, or are you learning to specifically work better in the neck? Are you taking the class because you really want to or because you’re just trying to get your CE hours?

JS Or are you taking it just because they look cool doing it and you want to be part of the cool club? [laughs]

MCF Right. And I would say sometimes there’s definitely a difference in the people — the quality of people in class who are taking it just for their CE requirements versus people who are there because they really want to learn something. Because if somebody’s there just for their CE requirements, they tend to be distracted, you’ll see them playing on their phone, they won’t pay attention, and all of a sudden, two weeks later, they contact you because they don’t know what’s going on. I think that being aware of what your goals are prior to signing up for a class is super important.

JS I would say ask yourself if you really know your anatomy. Because if our job, as massage therapists, is to work on the body, I would think that we should know the body. And we’re so used to speaking in layman’s terms to our clients, that once you have the opportunity to be surrounded by massage therapists and massage educators, be confident in speaking the language. Do some homework and study even just the basic stuff. Remember what superior and inferior and your directions are. It’s not like you have to have everything memorized, but just look over it. That way when it gets brought up in class, you’re not confused and it’s a little less stress on you. Especially like what you were saying, Allissa, if you ‘ve got anxiety in these classroom environments, just lessen the blow a little bit and bring out your trail guide book and just review.

AH That has been so helpful for me when I take a class, and I love getting that email from the instructor ahead of time that says, “Here’s what you need to bring,” blah, blah, blah. Here are the parts of the body you should review —

JS Right.

AH — here’s what you should know: you want to know your bony landmarks; you want to know this, this, and this; you want to know — you want to have a good working fluency of the rotator cuff. Boom. That is so helpful. So asking — if they do not proactively inform you, asking what anatomy you need to brush up on before class.

JS Totally. Totally.

MCF Yeah, there’s nothing like a deer in the headlights when you tell somebody, “We’re going to work on the bicep femoris,” and they’re working the arm all of a sudden. You’re like, “That’s the wrong limb, sweetie.” [laughs] Yeah, that’s super important. Jeni has a great point, too, about getting massages. She had put this in our notes: there’s really nothing worse than having massages you get in class be the only massages you’re getting in a year if you’re taking a hands-on class because you are getting a massage from a therapist who isn’t good at it yet. That table time is soaking up valuable learning. So you shouldn’t be lying there like, “Oh my gosh, he found a trigger point; that’s great; work that.” You need to be practicing self-care before you come to class because that is not your massage session. That is you helping your co-worker or your co-therapist learn a new technique.

JS Yeah, I think, if you’re going to practice what you preach, this shouldn’t be your only massage because this isn’t going to be a good massage in class. If you are, like she says, working on a trigger point and that’s not at all what you’re learning, then you’re skipping over the content that’s being presented. And your partner may not even want to help you with that; they might just want to work on the task at hand — or foot. Ha ha [laughs]

AH Nice.

JS Just go get massages like you’re supposed to. Be a good massage therapist.

AH What else? What else should people know and ask?

JS Maybe they should get the massage that they’re going to learn. Ask the instructor, “Hey who’s someone in my area that you recommend I go feel this from so that I have a better idea of what to expect?” But in the same breath of me saying that, don’t go to this person and treat it like a “steal and feel”. Just be there and absorb it and feel it and start to prep your brain so that you’re opening your mind to the things you’re going to learn. Don’t try to clutter it by trying to remember every single move that this person makes so that you can re-create it in a session. Just wait for class, and that goes for YouTube too. If you can’t find a therapist to receive from, but you start Googling and looking at YouTube videos of the work, you’re not going to pick up the nuances, and that person may not even be doing it correctly. So open your mind to look at things and research, but don’t even try to learn by osmosis that way. Just wait for the instructor who’s supposed to be the expert in this field. Wait for what they have to share with you.

MCF And I would say one thing, too, about when you’re in class — and this refers to our working on each other in class that we just talked about a minute ago — is that when you’re in class and you’re receiving, it’s part of your responsibility as a therapist to let the person who’s working on you know that they’re doing it well or they’re not doing it well or if their fingernails or their toenails are too long. That feedback is really important. And so I think whenever you take a CE class, you need to be able to be honest with the people who are working with you so that they can become better therapists. Because clients aren’t going to know whether they’re doing it right or not, and I feel like it’s a big responsibility when you’re lying on the table to make sure that you give honest feedback.

JS Yeah. I tend to tell my students that they’re only as good as each other’s feedback while they’re in class. So if they’re falling asleep, that’s not a very helpful…

AH What else do people need to know and/or ask? What else do we got? We’re going to wrap up this list now.

MCF I think the cancellation policy is really important. That when you sign up for a class, or before you sign up for a class, you need to know what the cancellation policy is and that you should not no-call and no-show and expect your money back. On that same token, don’t be late, don’t be unprepared. It only eats into your time and it screws up the whole class. Make sure that when you sign up for a CE class that you treat them like you’d want to be treated.

AH Sweet. Well thank you so much, Jeni Spring and Mary Claire Fredette, from the Center for Barefoot Massage. I just want to remind everyone that they can go to massagebusinessblueprint.com/barefoothacks and they can get a free download, 20 Hacks to Retain Clients. I love the marketing information that the center is putting out for their massage therapists. It’s helpful to everyone. And super helpful if you are a barefoot massage therapist.

Thank you so much for joining us. This has been super, super informative and I hope we gave everybody a ton of great ideas on what to know and what to ask before committing their time and their money to continuing education classes. You all can go to the podcast notes — if you go to massagebusinessblueprint.com, you’ll see the little podcast tab and you can see the notes under here with links to all of the references that we have made and talked about today. That’s all we got. If you have questions you want answered in a podcast, you can email us at podcast@massagebusinessblueprint.com. Tell your friends if you like this podcast and don’t tell anyone if you don’t. Have a great day, everyone. And thank you again, Jeni and Mary Claire, for joining us.

MCF You’re welcome. Thank you.

JS Thanks, Allissa.